EnergyNet’s Topic is Alternate Energy
Tony Ostheimer sent you this eBay item …
Hi, I saw this item on eBay and thought you might be interested. Note the way “resonance” enhances the electrolysis efficiency and the example of the opera singer with a bullhorn in the stadium filled with crystal glasses: eBay link.
And here’s the link for waterforfuel.com.
posted by Tony O. @ 3:24 PM on Tuesday, September 26, 2006
A friend in California sent me this link. This is incredible … what are Americans waiting for? Of course we can expect the oil interests to forestall it, oppose it, try to sabotage it. But, isn’t — “the handwriting on the wall?”
You cannot unsay a cruel word.
posted by Tony O. @ 1:36 AM on Thursday, May 11, 2006
I think that the “Joe Cell” just does ordinary electrolysis of water into hydrogen and oxygen gasses. The concentric metal electrodes divide the DC battery voltage across each water ring equally, so that the outside of each electrode releases hydrogen gas and the inside releases oxygen gas (or vice versa, depending on voltage polarity).
Fizzing and bubbling continues for a while after the voltage is removed because it takes a while for the H2 and O2 gasses released at the bottoms of the electrodes to float to the surface, because the water gets hot enough to release the atmospheric gasses disolved in it, and the electrodes get hot enough to boil a little water (ref. the different types of bubbles mentioned in the article). Of course, the steam and atmospheric gasses are not flamable, so they are not suitable for fuel in an internal combustion engine. The fizzing and bubbling ceases as the apparatus cools; it is certainly not an infinitely self- sustaining chemical reaction.
Of course there’s no such thing as “orgone energy,” sexual (as claimed) or otherwise. It cannot violate the rules of chemistry, physics, and nature (e.g. negative cooling “implosion” instead of positive heating explosion). Joe Cells do electrolyze water, but that’s all they’re good for.
posted by J.S. @ 1:23:45 PM on Thursday, May 11, 2006
Here’s a scanned article on the nascent hydrogen fuel industry by Stanford R. Ovshinsky, co-founder of Energy Conversion Devices Inc. This is also available as a320 kB PDF, or part of ovonic.com’s October 2004 “Report to Stockholders” which is a 4433 kB PDF.
posted by Tony O. @ 11:52 PM on Thursday, March 09, 2006
Thanks for sharing this Yahoo article on GM-Toyota. But, see all the faults in this?
posted by Tony O. @ 10:00 PM on Sunday, March 05, 2006
General Motors Corp. has made major steps in developing a commercially viable hydrogen-powered vehicle and expects it can get the emission-free cars into dealerships in the next four to nine years, a spokesman told AFP.
GM also expects it will be able to “equal or better gas engines in terms of cost, durability and performance” once it is able to ramp up volume to at least 500,000 vehicles a year, said GM spokesman Scott Fosgard.
GM has partnered with Japanese rival Toyota Motor Corp. for a number of years on developing the experimental fuel-cell technology.
On Thursday, the automaker announced that while it will continue its tie-up with Toyota on other advanced technologies, it will no longer be sharing its fuel-cell research.
“Because of the advances we made that type of technology is passing from the research phase to development,” Fosgard said.
Fuel cells produce electricity through a chemical reaction between hydrogen and oxygen, leaving water as the only by-product. They are far more environmentally friendly than the currently popular hybrid gas-electric engines which merely reduce the amount of gas needed to power the vehicle.
There are still a number of barriers to the commercialization of hydrogen-powered cars. One is the infrastructure cost of building refueling stations. Another big challenge is reducing the cost of obtaining hydrogen itself, which has to be extracted from fossil fuels, such as carbon, or from water.
The International Energy Agency has said that if conditions were right, hydrogen and hydrogen fuel cells could play key roles in weaning energy users away from oil, gas and coal.
“In the most favourable conditions, hydrogen fuel-cell vehicles would enter the market (in mass numbers) around 2025 and power 30 percent of the global stock of vehicles by 2050 — the equivalent of about 700 million vehicles,” the IEA said in a recent report.
“The oil saving would then be equivalent to some 13 percent of global oil demand, or five percent of the global energy demand.”
GM and Toyota will continue to work together on technology that will help to save lives, Fosgard said.
The world’s largest automakers have been collaborating since 1999 on developing safety systems and advanced technologies. The partnership was set to expire at the end of the month and has been extended to March 31, 2008, GM said.
The latest agreement covers information exchange and collaborative research in areas such as energy usage and emissions, intelligent transportation systems, vehicle infrastructure integration and vehicle-to-vehicle communications. It also allows for joint research projects in other areas.
Copyright © 2006 Agence France Presse. All rights reserved. The information contained in the AFP News report may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed without the prior written authority of Agence France Presse.
posted by Gil Mangels @ 9:00 PM on Sunday, March 05, 2006
Yes, I believe these water engines will work. I don’t know for how long, or the MPG efficiency, or the metallurgical problems one might experience with iron oxidizing faster from water/hydrogen exposure.
To convert any existing gas engine over to burn water, one will need a larger (because MPG on water will only be 6-10 MPG) plastic fuel tank or the original tank carefully sealed (water rusts), a hydrolyzer (there are some “off the shelf” ones that work, or one can make a better one with dual sets of electrodes and an easy way to clean deposits when they plug up from “dirty” water), a bracket to mount the hydrolyzer near the carburetor or fuel injection pump, an oversized alternator to run the hydrolyzer in addition to all the vehicle’s other electrical demands, & a gaseous converter kit like those made by IMPCO and similar to what propane burners use – but designed for hydrogen.
The Garretts did a simple conversion on a Ford Model “A” – in 1935! – and read below, plus see their 4 patent drawings near the bottom. Then, to preserve the operation, one should replace the valves and seats with stainless steel, the guides with copper, the exhaust system with stainless steel, and one can remove all the pollution control equipment – all that’s produced in the exhaust is water vapor and immeasurable ozone. The extra engine compartment space can then be utilized for the hydrolyzer and another oversized alternator. Extra water tanks might be installed in the opposite fender well, as in pickup trucks, or in the trunk. The while-driving rain scoop idea is cute but not really practical. But the muffler condenser and water recycling idea would add 30-40% efficiency boost by saving exhaust steam/water vapor and recycling it as fuel feed to the hydrolyzer. The Garretts apparently “belted in” their hydrolyzer to run constantly once the engine was turning over. I believe that would work as well, or in addition to, running the hydrolyzer (or a dual hydrolyzer) solely on alternator AC juice, if there’s bracket room under the hood.
Other options? Solar PV panels embedded in or mounted above the hood, roof and trunk lid to split water into hydrogen or charge an extra battery – & there’s your “starting charge of hydrofuel”. Rain gutter downspout gravity tanks so you can fill ‘er up at home or from any suitable roof. A 12VDC pump in the trunk & run off the battery for pumping water from river, lake, irrigation ditch, etc. Dual hydrolyzers, with dual sets of easily cleaned electrodes. Dual redundancy will insure some reliability until someone invents a continuously self-cleaning or shielded set of anodes.
Regenerative braking as is being used now in most of the gas-electric hybrids. It’s just a good idea and will eventually be economical and used on most vehicles.
I have this page and several other alternative fuel pages posted onwww.molesworthmi.org in “NEWS”, archived stories 2004.
There’s a publicly-owned company called Energy Conversion Devices in Michigan (stock market symbol is “ENER”) and they have an informative Webster which is far into hydrogen fuel, nickel metal hydride batteries, chips, etc. and what they say is, we’re on the leading edge of “The Hydrogen Age”. GM’s retired CEO, Stemple, is on their Board. He recognized it was too late for GM, unless a full-scale US Government crash hydro program saves GM & Ford by leapfrogging the Japanese automakers and propelling the USA into a hydrogen (water fuel) technology, and saving the USA from oil import costs bankruptcy, while enabling an export of our hydrofuel technology licensure. Unfortunately, it may be that foreigners will get there first with the most and the best, and America will then be a banana republic exporting wheat, logs, woodchips, and terror. No, not even a republic. Just a chaotic democracy where everyone’s reduced to “the lowest common denominator” instead of raised up to the level of the Bill Gateses and Stanford Ovshinskis.
PS – If you can do this, and then put together a simple conversion kit with instructions and sell it, wouldn’t it be a huge leg up for the Museum’s endowment?
This file was originally posted on the KeelyNet BBS on December 3, 1993 as GARRETT1.ASC on KeelyNet: Garrett Water Carburetor
posted by Tony O. @ 8:00 PM on Sunday, March 05, 2006
They work – except that Newton’s 3rd Law say they cannot? Is this like what Galileo once encountered? The Pope said the earth is flat, and anyone who disagrees is a heretic?
posted by Tony O. @ 7:00 PM on Sunday, March 05, 2006
Tony’O, U.S. energy and environmental policies are mainly being set by energy companies behind closed doors in Washington, DC. And a lot of money is being passed under the table. As you remember, Oil Baron George Bush had that Snake from Enron, Ken Lay, write U.S. Energy Policy behind closed doors just after George took office. And Oil Baron Dick Cheney was Lay’s keeper. OB Bush still refuses to divulge what went on in those meetings. We Americans don’t need and can’t afford to be ruled by a Stealth Government like the one we have now. What I’m thinking is we need to get an organized way for us Citizens to input state and national energy and environmental laws. That could be done through a USA Energy & Environmental Coalition with inputs to the Federal Government from all Coalition member states.
Would Montana support such a Coalition? Hell, the rest of the States would probably fall in behind a coalition of Montana and California. If we but lead, the rest will follow. I believe I can organize such a Coalition in California. Can you do the same in Montana? I’d be pleased to join you in Montana to help convince your Governor to back it.
Semper Fi, Jack Flynn in San Diego
posted by Jack Flynn @ 6:00 PM on Sunday, March 05, 2006
Jack, one more “electable” comes to mind – he’s Bill Richardson, who’s been Gov. of NM, has been Sec. Dept. Energy during the China spy scandal, is part Hispanic, & is grad of both my schools, Middlesex & then Harvard.
But why didn’t he move the mountain when he was Sec. Energy?
posted by Tony O. @ 5:00 PM on Sunday, March 05, 2006
TonyO, oil is the problem and solar is the solution. Unfortunately, the Republicans control the White House and Congress and they’re mostly fossil fuel supporters, including the President and Vice President.
Also, there aren’t many Democrats that know their ass from first base where energy is concerned. We need to get some folks in the White House and Congress who don’t have a vested financial infterest in perpetuating fossil fuels. Who do you see who’s electable that would push a rapid transition to solar through Congress and the White House?
Most candididates to do that would probably need remedial education in energy and environmental fields to get them to the point where they could understand how to solve the problem.
posted by Jack Flynn @ 4:00 PM on Sunday, March 05, 2006
You are right on target here, in every respect! We don’t need their oil! Why warfight over stuff we don’t need? We cannot afford it anyway; just look at the balance of payments mess USA is in from importing foreign oil! Before all the warfighting costs! And burning all the fossil fuels is environmental suicide; they’re finite in supply (like, we have 400 years’ of coal, much of it lignite in Montana) but they won’t run out before humans push global warming past the point of no return. Several creditable scientists have started saying humans may have already pushed rising temperatures past that point now. So, developing solar energy, hydrogen fuels, biodiesels for high compression engines and ethanol/methanol for low compression engines – using made in America technologies and renewable assets – has got to happen, and tomorrow won’t be soon enough!
I can send you lots of websites to back up your argument – For example, trywww.ovonic.com and or www.ovonics.com or just search engine for “Energy Conversion Devices” a Michigan corp. and look through their energy cycle diagram, from gathering solar rays – through
We grow a lot of corn, wheat, canola, and sunflower in Montana but I’d rather see biodiesel fuels squeezed out of Industrial Hemp stems before the plants are made into paper, blue jeans, or fermentations from which alcohol could be distilled off using solar energy, and the residue fed as cattle feed. Why have fuels usage competing for human food and driving up the prices at the supermarket? BTW, Industrial Hemp is no more smokable than corn silk! It once was the largest farm crop in America, but the drug enforcers, just like the oil patch kids, have all the docile consumers lined up to buy their cocaine and heroin, their Colombian gold, their Afghan poppy shit, and their gasoline at the pump. Like the Garrett’s did in 1935 (!!!!!), I believe (because in Montana we have surplus water) its time Americans poured water in their car fuel tanks and ran on straight hydrogen, once a simple conversion kit is installed, and just forget buying that Exxon Tiger piss. Saying this is my First Amendment Right to free expression, and not only can Congress make no law respecting infringements on my free speech and expression rights, the overreaching executive branch cannot wiretap my brain or tape my mouth shut without a warrant, and if I catch ‘em at it I will become their worst nightmare.
You’re ideas are peaceful, constructive, and revolutionary – and badly needed, before the average Joe 6 paks around us, many now unemployed and/or under-employed, decide its hopeless and come out shooting like the sheetheads in Iraq. Keep on truckin’ with this stuff, please!!!!
Semper Fi from TonyO
posted by Tony O. @ 3:00 PM on Sunday, March 05, 2006
I’m currently working with some leading solar energy experts on a plan to solarize San Diego. This will be a pilot project for solarizing California and the rest of the USA. And then, the rest of the World. This energy approach is very do-able at a much lower cost and with a much higher return on investment than continuing to fight no-win Wars for Oil we don’t need and shouldn’t use around the World at great cost to our failing economy.
I’m hopeful that Jack Glasgow will run the article on this subject that I’ve pasted on down below. I’ve done him a lot of favors. If you’d like to be updated on this project, let me know by return email. This new energy approach will work just as well in your home town and home state. Shortly, we’ll have a Website for this project up and running. I’ll email you the Web Address.
Let the sun shine in and Semper Fi, Jack Flynn in San Diego
posted by Jack Flynn @ 2:00 PM on Sunday, March 05, 2006
Our Marines appear to be fighting with their usual ferocity, Esprit de Corps and bulldog tenacity in our Wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. We’re all very proud of them for that. In the meantime, we’re relatively inattentive to festering conditions that can lead to new wars in much of the rest of the world. Many nations are badly bogged down in abject poverty and the pestilence and disease that it breeds. Even though we have the expertise and technology to do so, we’re doing very little to help these countries solve their debilitating environmental problems. Our large war budget apparently doesn’t allow it. Since retiring from our Corps in 1977, I’ve worked in energy and environmental fields around the world. I’m in total agreement with the majority of the world’s environmental scientists that burning oil for energy is destroying our environment. And it’s also damaging our economy in the process. Rather than making a rapid transition from oil to environmentally friendly, readily available and free for the taking solar energy, we’re fighting wars for Muslim oil. That’s a fool’s game. Our sun can provide the whole world with all the free energy we need to prosper and live in peace and harmony. Let’s wage a peace offensive to make this happen. I’m standing by for active duty in that effort.
Semper Fidelis, John F. “Jack” Flynn, Major USMC Retired, in San Diego
posted by Jack Flynn @ 1:00 PM on Sunday, March 05, 2006